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Old 12-06-2018, 11:07 AM   #341
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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Originally Posted by sosfan812 View Post
The most successful Gamecock basketball seasons,since Alex English days,have Always had home grown South Carolina talent at the heart of the team. The great Folger teams were led by Bj Mckie and Melvin Watson. The final four was Sin and PJ. Opinions vary but facts don't.
I get the argument that it doesn't matter where players come from as long as they win. But when you have top players within spitting distance (figurative not literal) of the school and none of them want to stay in state and play for the coach of a FF team there is a problem somewhere.

The most fun I have had watching basketball was with local guys like Thornwell and Dozier, and McKie, Davis and Watson. If you go back far enough you have guys like JoJo English, Joe Rhett and Barry Manning.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:13 AM   #342
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

Getting instate guys doesn't matter as long as you can recruit studs out of state. We can't do either.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:17 AM   #343
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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Getting instate guys doesn't matter as long as you can recruit studs out of state. We can't do either.
I am saying that getting the in-state studs will help put butts in the seats and generate excitement. But only if you win with them.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:07 PM   #344
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

You really have to wonder what ticket sales are going to be like as the season drags on. There’s not really much mystery to this team. Postseason is not happening. Could turn into a vicious cycle. Poor play causes ticket sales to drop while decreasing attendance results in less enthusiastic play.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:16 PM   #345
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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You really have to wonder what ticket sales are going to be like as the season drags on. There’s not really much mystery to this team. Postseason is not happening. Could turn into a vicious cycle. Poor play causes ticket sales to drop while decreasing attendance results in less enthusiastic play.
That's the Catch-22 for Tanner. But also the possible defections (transfers) at the end of the year. I have a feeling something big is going to pop before Christmas. A player will leave the team or there might be an all-out player revolt.

Bruce Martin could probably coach this team to 15 wins.

I wonder if Frank Martin could be suspended for the rest of the season - but not fired. Just get him away from the program and see what sort of change it makes. If the team rallies then Tanner will know what he has to do. If not, then Frank Martin knows what he has to do.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:22 PM   #346
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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That's the Catch-22 for Tanner. But also the possible defections (transfers) at the end of the year. I have a feeling something big is going to pop before Christmas. A player will leave the team or there might be an all-out player revolt.

Bruce Martin could probably coach this team to 15 wins.

I wonder if Frank Martin could be suspended for the rest of the season - but not fired. Just get him away from the program and see what sort of change it makes. If the team rallies then Tanner will know what he has to do. If not, then Frank Martin knows what he has to do.

Tanner is part of the problem in that he negotiated this ridiculous buyout
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:40 PM   #347
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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That's the Catch-22 for Tanner. But also the possible defections (transfers) at the end of the year. I have a feeling something big is going to pop before Christmas. A player will leave the team or there might be an all-out player revolt.

Bruce Martin could probably coach this team to 15 wins.

I wonder if Frank Martin could be suspended for the rest of the season - but not fired. Just get him away from the program and see what sort of change it makes. If the team rallies then Tanner will know what he has to do. If not, then Frank Martin knows what he has to do.
I don’t envy the decision Ray has to make. If attendance declines throughout the season then what? We don’t have any player coming in next year who is enough on his own to spark enthusiasm, so you’ll probably be looking at lackluster ticket sales again.

It plausible, though not likely, that next year’s team could be quite good and a decision to keep Frank will pay off. It’s also possible next year’s team could be bad, in which case the decision to hold onto Frank for another season could set the team back several seasons.

Then you have to ask, is it likely we can do better than Frank? If so, who is a realistic option? A new coach generally brings a sense of enthusiasm and optimism so it would reinvigorate the fan base, but that’s not reason enough alone to make a change. Or is it? The fan base is rapidly growing apathetic, which is the worst of all scenarios. Ideally you’d like the fan base happy. You don’t want to see them angry, but at least they are still emotionally invested. When the fan base just no longer cares, that’s dangerous.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:57 PM   #348
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

I have mixed feelings on Frank, but something is clearly big wrong with the program right now. Last night was the first one I was able to watch start to finish (or stomached to make it to the end)--here's my amateur psych assessment:


First, Frank is bewildered. That's never a good look for any person, even less for someone who's to be a team leader. His flippant remarks where he pushes the blame on players is tired. You're hired to make these guys better and so far, they're getting worse.


Second, the players are mentally checked out. I have no clue what happened in the offseason, but when I see three guys who were supposed to be pillars for the team suck this hard, it's an institutional problem. Am I to believe that some separate issues hit Silva Kotsar and Gravett to at best make them stagnant but, in the case of Silva, look like they've never touched a basketball? Or is it more likely that some singular issue affected the entire set of upperclassman? I'm not even going to start putting guesses as to what that might be, coaching styles, personalities, team issues, a sense that Frank's short timing it. Whatever it is, I believe whole heartedly that it's a problem with the program and not the players.


And to further that point, the last 10 minutes were an offensive shit show. Disorganized, rushing, pushing shots, unaware of spacing and timing. Players completely lost faith in what Martin was calling and went rogue to win on their own. At least we can still inbound a basketball, so it's better than it's been, but watching players rush the shot or, worse still, make the right call and Kotsar and Silva miss wide open looks a foot from the basket reinforces that there's no one to trust out there but yourself.


Frank's always good for 1-2 transfers per year, and if I were being recruited by this group, I'd be having some second thoughts.


Not sure if there is a silver lining here. It'll take a flood of good fortune--Silva coming back to life, Kotsar being an athlete, freshman maturing and not hitting that wall, Frank doing some introspection, locking up a recruit to make people excited, and at least a handful of wins to wash this taste away. I'm not seeing any chance those things happen.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:00 PM   #349
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

I'm just a fan who lives far away, but I'm going to follow the games and hope for better days for this team. I have no influence on the program or the administration. I don't think Frank forgot how to coach all of a sudden. I honestly don't think he knows what is wrong with Silva. If he knew, he would fix it.

This team will probably struggle until it gets tired of losing. If that happens, we could see them play better. The next four games are going to be a challenge, to understate it. It will be interesting to see how they play against a Michigan team that will be predicted to blow them out. We'll see if they have any pride, and if they can control themselves well enough to compete.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:04 PM   #350
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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I'm just a fan who lives far away, but I'm going to follow the games and hope for better days for this team. I have no influence on the program or the administration. I don't think Frank forgot how to coach all of a sudden. I honestly don't think he knows what is wrong with Silva. If he knew, he would fix it.

This team will probably struggle until it gets tired of losing. If that happens, we could see them play better. The next four games are going to be a challenge, to understate it. It will be interesting to see how they play against a Michigan team that will be predicted to blow them out. We'll see if they have any pride, and if they can control themselves well enough to compete.
In all honesty, no sarcasm here, based on the overall history of our sports teams, it would not surprise me at all to play surprisingly well against Michigan. Maybe even win. Then lose to North Greenville.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:09 PM   #351
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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In all honesty, no sarcasm here, based on the overall history of our sports teams, it would not surprise me at all to play surprisingly well against Michigan. Maybe even win. Then lose to North Greenville.
Yes, I could see that happening. College teams often play to the level of the competition.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:12 PM   #352
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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Tanner is part of the problem in that he negotiated this ridiculous buyout
Yup
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Old 12-06-2018, 03:21 PM   #353
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

I am a prime pumper and even I was disappointed in last night's game. But....

Our best player is still AJ Lawson, and I see a lot of potential in Freshmen Moss, Bryant and Frink. I think that Moss and Frink would be further along (as well as the team) if they had not started the year hurt.

Like I said after the Wofford game, the key is three pointers, making them and stopping them. Both teams took 20 three point shots, they made 10, we made 3. 50%, for Wyoming, the equivalent of hitting 75% on twos, and we were at 15%. the equivalent of 22.5% on twos. That is a 21 point swing in a game with a 9 point final margin.

In other words - we out-played them, except for shooting the three. That was the difference between a comfortable win for us and an L.

We continue to try to get it into Silva to open up the three. He was 3 - 14, 22%, on short-range shots where he should be hitting way over 50% - the same equivalent shooting as the three pointers that we took. And he had all three of our FT misses also. If he is not effective in scoring and drawing defenders, the threes will not be open.

We will get better. And Frank deserves a chance to coach them up - he recruited the guys, after all. He is using the same methods that he always has, and that have worked many times in the past. And I do not think the players have checked out - they seem just as frustrated as we are.

But I agree - it is painful right now. Our veteran teams were not much better shooting the 3, but were a LOT better at stopping them. That is where our young guys are really struggling, on D. We are not going to beat anyone allowing a high percentage on threes, like Wyoming and Wofford. Let's hope Frank can fix that quickly.
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Old 12-06-2018, 03:28 PM   #354
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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Not one statement above is true. You are just arguing to avoid admitting what is obvious to any reasonable fan.
What exactly isn’t true?
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Old 12-06-2018, 03:48 PM   #355
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

If you want to replace Frank Martin, then go ahead and do it. Won't bother me at all. If his replacement wins more than he does, that will be good. If his replacement wins less, then that will be typical of USC basketball for the last 40 years. Which I am used to.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:04 PM   #356
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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I am a prime pumper
That's a severe understatement.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:23 PM   #357
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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Tanner is part of the problem in that he negotiated this ridiculous buyout
I disagree because it made sense at the time. you absolutely wanted to keep a guy like that around. nobody could have predicted that someone could be so inept at getting talent to come to carolina after a final 4
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:24 PM   #358
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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If you want to replace Frank Martin, then go ahead and do it. Won't bother me at all. If his replacement wins more than he does, that will be good. If his replacement wins less, then that will be typical of USC basketball for the last 40 years. Which I am used to.
i just dont see how his replacement could win less than we are right now. the hope is you get a coach who has these good freshmen, can make a run, and pull in new talent also.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:30 PM   #359
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

How long until the “players only meeting?” Then we’ll know the end is near.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:34 PM   #360
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Default Re: The "Cult of Frank"

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Originally Posted by Wisercock View Post
That's the Catch-22 for Tanner. But also the possible defections (transfers) at the end of the year. I have a feeling something big is going to pop before Christmas. A player will leave the team or there might be an all-out player revolt.

Bruce Martin could probably coach this team to 15 wins.

I wonder if Frank Martin could be suspended for the rest of the season - but not fired. Just get him away from the program and see what sort of change it makes. If the team rallies then Tanner will know what he has to do. If not, then Frank Martin knows what he has to do.


I’ve seen enough of Frank. But suspend him on what grounds? Sucking? I’ve never heard of that happening.

Tanner should be under a microscope. All 3 major programs have tanked while he’s been AD. Fans are noticing.
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