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Old 04-05-2017, 02:42 PM   #361
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

I suppose I'd be interested to know of situations where a single one-and-done recruit is credited with single-handedly elevating recruiting at a program over the long-term.

There's no argument from me that we should be pursuing him heavily and that he's an obvious take. I just won't view it as detrimental to our program if we don't get him.
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:51 PM   #362
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

Did Zion release his Top 5 list yet? Any new news on him?

Maybe someone should start a separate thread for "One and Dones"...
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:59 PM   #363
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Originally Posted by CoastCocky View Post
I suppose I'd be interested to know of situations where a single one-and-done recruit is credited with single-handedly elevating recruiting at a program over the long-term.

There's no argument from me that we should be pursuing him heavily and that he's an obvious take. I just won't view it as detrimental to our program if we don't get him.
Had Coach Cal stayed at Memphis I would say Derrick Rose would have been one. Memphis was always solid but he took them next level and they came up just short of winning it all. While Cuse has always been a rock solid program Melo brought them a title, Boeheim's only one. UCLA may be insanely prestigious but Alford's job was in trouble following last season after they went 15-17 then the Ball/Leaf combo comes in and they're a #3 seed the following year and Alford has job security which helps him on the recruiting trail. It can obviously be a total waste, look no further than LSU and Washington, but I'll take my chances on it being a waste because if you put a one and done in the right situation special things can happen and I think with Frank here we've got a good situation to take advantage of getting a one-and-done and capitalizing.
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Old 04-06-2017, 09:34 AM   #364
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Originally Posted by gotrice? View Post
Had Coach Cal stayed at Memphis I would say Derrick Rose would have been one. Memphis was always solid but he took them next level and they came up just short of winning it all. While Cuse has always been a rock solid program Melo brought them a title, Boeheim's only one. UCLA may be insanely prestigious but Alford's job was in trouble following last season after they went 15-17 then the Ball/Leaf combo comes in and they're a #3 seed the following year and Alford has job security which helps him on the recruiting trail. It can obviously be a total waste, look no further than LSU and Washington, but I'll take my chances on it being a waste because if you put a one and done in the right situation special things can happen and I think with Frank here we've got a good situation to take advantage of getting a one-and-done and capitalizing.
Memphis, Syracuse and UCLA all had decent (or great) basketball history prior to each of the players you mentioned.

If Calipari staying at Memphis is a requirement, then that doesn't attribute the success solely to a one-and-done. Also, Memphis was already having success, having made the Elite 8 the 2 seasons prior to Rose arriving. And they had good NCAAT success in years past.

You can't really say Melo elevated Syracuse. Yes, he was instrumental in them winning the title the year he was there, but they'd been in the tournament almost every year for the previous 20 years before Melo's arrival and won a couple titles.

Alford had one down year at UCLA and was in trouble b/c of their impatient fan base, but he'd taken them to the Sweet 16 the two years prior. With the hottest one-and-done in the game this season, they still only made it back to the Sweet 16. So did Ball really elevate the program? With UCLA's crazy history, it's really hard to attribute any future recruiting success to Ball's having gone there. The two 5* recruits signed for the 2017 class, signed their LOIs just a game or so into UCLA's season.

I'm looking for an example where a program was mostly mired in mediocrity (like us), then a one-and-done came for one year, and the program remained elevated (winning and recruiting) after he was gone.

Again, I do not dispute that Zion is a take all day long and could give us one really good year. I just don't see any track record anywhere of a one-and-done having a long-term effect on changing the fortunes of a program
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Old 04-06-2017, 10:25 AM   #365
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Originally Posted by CoastCocky View Post
I suppose I'd be interested to know of situations where a single one-and-done recruit is credited with single-handedly elevating recruiting at a program over the long-term.
Tough to say that now because the one and done wasn't a thing of past, so a lot of these programs have already been established.

These one and dones are mostly going to the already established programs like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Arizona etc.

It sure as hell didn't help NC State or Washington this year and those 2 guys are top 5 picks.
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Old 04-06-2017, 11:08 AM   #366
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Originally Posted by CoastCocky View Post
Your argument presupposes that other potential recruits would view Zion coming to USC as a major factor in him making it to the NBA. But Zion is going to the NBA, no matter where he goes. He could go the juco route and still go to the NBA after a season. He could take a year off and work at McDonald's and still go to the NBA. Recruits know that and know that him coming to USC won't be what launched his NBA career.

I actually think him being destined for the NBA is the only thing that really gives us a shot. He doesn't NEED to go to Duke or UK or UNC to get drafted. For a recruit like him, there's no benefit of choosing one school over another, in terms of NBA draft potential. All of this is assuming, of course, that he pans out. Maybe he gets to college and is just a very good player, but not one-and-done caliber.

He would undoubtedly make us better...for a season...and is certainly a take if he wanted to come here. But I really don't see any recruiting impact after he's gone, for the reason stated above, and don't see any great long-term impact of him coming here for a single season. He would get us more exposure for the year that he's here, but that vanishes the moment he's gone.

Also, it's already been mentioned, but if you look at the track record of Kentucky's one-and-dones in the NBA, it's ok, not great. But I know recruits don't think that critically. They just see the fastest way to get to the NBA...and they all think they'll be the next MJ once they get there.

This article provides a good analysis of the real impact of one-and-dones in college:

http://lacrossetribune.com/sports/lo...12be1f1b9.html
I think that is true to some extent because Zion is going to attract attention if he goes to Wofford. But the fact is that NBA scouts know that UK, Duke, and UNC bring in more talent and are more likely to have players who can jump to the NBA after one year. So those programs get more attention and Calipari, Coach K and Williams have more contacts. They don't have to win the NC either.

But I agree with you that for a player like Zion the benefit is marginal. I also agree that an isolated "one & done" is probably not a huge benefit to SC. Those other schools have a long history. It also won't hurt us to have a player like that from time to time, but I'd prefer to have a few more Thornwells and Dozier types. It is more fun for fans (and probably coaches) to know they will have a guy for more than 1 year.
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:20 PM   #367
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoastCocky View Post
I suppose I'd be interested to know of situations where a single one-and-done recruit is credited with single-handedly elevating recruiting at a program over the long-term.

There's no argument from me that we should be pursuing him heavily and that he's an obvious take. I just won't view it as detrimental to our program if we don't get him.
I can't think of an example that fits. But, the more great players you get, especially those that make it to the NBA, then it becomes a lot easier to recruit.

Frank is a great coach, but I think the only thing that keeps him from being considered by more recruits, is that there isn't a proven track record of NBA talent, as much as there are good college teams/players.

You look at the women's program, and Dawn is really starting to crank out WNBA-caliber talent.
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:26 PM   #368
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

At the end of the day teams with NBA talent win titles.
Yea UNC didn't have a team dominated by one and dones this year, but 5-6 of those players will be in the NBA next year.

Same could be said for NOVA last year, Duke the year before, Louisville, Kentucky etc
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Old 04-08-2017, 09:53 PM   #369
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

Word is Xavier Thomas is in Zion's ear.
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Old 04-08-2017, 10:49 PM   #370
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Word is Xavier Thomas is in Zion's ear.
Implying there is any universe in which Zion goes to Clemson?

Not gonna happen. It's either us or a blue blood.
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Old 04-08-2017, 10:49 PM   #371
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Originally Posted by CoastCocky View Post
Word is Xavier Thomas is in Zion's ear.
Saying what? Go to Clemson? Their program is a disaster and they just had their only star graduate. Their coach is on thin ice and might not be around when Zion gets to college. If he has reservations about us due to our lack of success, well.....

Maybe XT is trashing us but I hope he is better than that. Or he could be pointing out that Zion can get a nice car if he goes to Clemson. But Zion will be one year away from the NBA - I am sure he could get a loan and buy his own damn car.
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Old 04-08-2017, 10:54 PM   #372
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

Football is one thing Clemson has over us right now but basketball....nah son....Zion ain't gonna waste his God given talent on those unappreciative hicks who don't give two shits about basketball.
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Old 04-08-2017, 11:56 PM   #373
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Originally Posted by CoastCocky View Post
I suppose I'd be interested to know of situations where a single one-and-done recruit is credited with single-handedly elevating recruiting at a program over the long-term.

There's no argument from me that we should be pursuing him heavily and that he's an obvious take. I just won't view it as detrimental to our program if we don't get him.
Michael Beasley elevated Kansas state and started a great 5-6 year run for them. Although I'm liable to give Frank Martin more credit for that.
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Old 04-09-2017, 07:42 AM   #374
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Michael Beasley elevated Kansas state and started a great 5-6 year run for them. Although I'm liable to give Frank Martin more credit for that.


Beasley and Bill Walker were Huggins recruits. Huggins got it started and Martin took off from there.


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Old 04-09-2017, 09:49 AM   #375
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Michael Beasley elevated Kansas state and started a great 5-6 year run for them. Although I'm liable to give Frank Martin more credit for that.
Frank didnt recruit him.

Beasleys AAU coach came to K state and hats how they got him.
Beasley was originally committed to UNCC because of that guy.
I love Frank but let's Be correct here
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:51 AM   #376
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

I hope Clemson keeps brownell.

I really don't want them hiring someone good like Tom Crean
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Old 04-09-2017, 12:02 PM   #377
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Frank didnt recruit him.

Beasleys AAU coach came to K state and hats how they got him.
Beasley was originally committed to UNCC because of that guy.
I love Frank but let's Be correct here
This is true Bob Huggins hired the guy the year before Frank was there. Most do believe the reason Martin got the job was because the continuity of the staff and that assistant coach would allow them to keep Beasley. Beasley was used by many and didn't even know it. He sued an agent that paid for his moms rent and car which he didn't know about as well the as the aau team founder who was also a coach. That aau founder was sentenced to prison for 8+ yeas for major cocaine and heroin dealing.
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Old 04-09-2017, 12:23 PM   #378
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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This is true Bob Huggins hired the guy the year before Frank was there. Most do believe the reason Martin got the job was because the continuity of the staff and that assistant coach would allow them to keep Beasley. Beasley was used by many and didn't even know it. He sued an agent that paid for his moms rent and car which he didn't know about as well the as the aau team founder who was also a coach. That aau founder was sentenced to prison for 8+ yeas for major cocaine and heroin dealing.
That said Beasley was Big 12 player of the year, A Unanimous all American and the 2nd overall pick.

Seeing as how he is in the NBA. Frank is a ****ing saint for being able to put up with his bullshit.
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Old 04-09-2017, 12:30 PM   #379
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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I hope Clemson keeps brownell.

I really don't want them hiring someone good like Tom Crean
Crean couldn't win consistently with Hoosier talent...I doubt very much he could win with tigger talent
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Old 04-09-2017, 12:52 PM   #380
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Default Re: 2018 MBB Zion Williamson (SC)

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Originally Posted by WeCocky2001 View Post
Frank didnt recruit him.

Beasleys AAU coach came to K state and hats how they got him.
Beasley was originally committed to UNCC because of that guy.
I love Frank but let's Be correct here
Um, I wasn't giving Frank credit for recruiting Beasley. I was giving Frank more credit than Beasley for ushering in a great era of Kansas State basketball, since the issue was whether one blue chip recruit elevated and sustained a program. Just to, you know, be correct here.
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