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Old 04-11-2017, 06:24 PM   #1
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Default If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

Many research reports have shown there is a better chance of scoring a runner from 1b with no outs than scoring a runner from 2b with one out. The latest story I read on this was showing how much sac bunts have decreased in MLB.

In 2016 MLB had the lowest amount of sac bunts in baseball history. The Boston Red Sox had only 8 sac bunts last season and MLB plays 162 games. As I have stated several times the sac bunt is a wasted out and most MLB managers seem to feel the same way.

Not only is the sac bunt a low percentage play, Chad has many players who can't execute the bunt and make outs. Other times Chad takes the bunt off after the player has two strikes. Needless to say this puts the hitter in a deep hole that usually results in an out.

If Chad will start playing the percentages like most MLB teams have done we should win more games. MLB woke up. Hopefully Chad will do the same. LSU won several national titles when they had a coach who hated the sac bunt.
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Old 04-11-2017, 06:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

MLB is not college ball!!!
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Old 04-11-2017, 07:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

Get over yourself
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Old 04-11-2017, 07:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

tell that to vandy....shove your stats. he is a bad manager but not because he tries to sac bunt runners to second
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Old 04-11-2017, 07:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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MLB is not college ball!!!
The idea still holds. Sac bunts are not very useful unless you're bunting with the pitcher.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:09 PM   #6
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by NJGCfan View Post
The idea still holds. Sac bunts are not very useful unless you're bunting with the pitcher.
No it doesnt. MLB players work at baseball, many many hours a day. The routines for covering bunts are so much more fluid, they all have cannon arms and are the best in the biz. College kids while still good players, dont deal with bunts as well. They cant throw as well or as hard. Simply putting the ball in play can get you 1st and 2nd and no outs. Sac bunts are not routine outs in college, but hitting into double plays happen alot.

again, watch how vandy works small ball around their good pitching
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:12 PM   #7
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

Depends on the team. The Gamecocks have a tough time with men on base and have a bad habit of hitting into double plays. Example tonight we have 1 on and 0 outs and just scored 2 runs. Next man up fires up a taylormade double play ball to 2nd. End of threat.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:12 PM   #8
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

We are better off with a runner at second and one out than hitting into a DP which is often our result.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:34 PM   #9
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

The sac bunt is specifically designed to stay out of a double play. Why would major leaguers bunt when they can all go yak? Exactly
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:41 PM   #10
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by GamecockUltimate View Post
No it doesnt. MLB players work at baseball, many many hours a day. The routines for covering bunts are so much more fluid, they all have cannon arms and are the best in the biz. College kids while still good players, dont deal with bunts as well. They cant throw as well or as hard. Simply putting the ball in play can get you 1st and 2nd and no outs. Sac bunts are not routine outs in college, but hitting into double plays happen alot.

again, watch how vandy works small ball around their good pitching
Might be the weakest argument that I have ever heard. Because you are ignoring the fact that when pros "practice many hours a day" it makes them better at fielding balls that are not bunts. And also better at bunting.

The studies have also shown that you are likelier to score more runs with runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs than runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out.

And here is the rub - it is not a lead pipe cinch that you will advance the runner to 2nd, or the runners to 2nd and 3rd, to get to that less desirable situation. I would put the chance at a "successful" bunt at around 80% - you can also pop out, bunt too hard and get the lead runner, foul off the 3rd strike, get behind in the count and have to swing away when you are in the hole, etc. Because college hitters aren't as good as pros at bunting.

On the other hand - college players hit for higher averages, walk more, get more HBPs, more errors, etc. I much higher on base percentage if you hit away. If bunts don't make sense in the pros, they make a lot less sense in college.

And my pet peeve is when the failed bunt is described as "poor fundamentals". Bunts are not easy. Think about free throws - it is a short shot, no one guarding you, and a good free throw shooter makes 80%. Is the other 20% "poor fundamentals"? If a good hitter bats .300, does he have poor fundamentals the other 70% of the time?

But the thread should not be brought up - the baseball purists will defend the bunt no matter how many times it fails. They totally ignore the facts and probably still think the earth is flat. Bunts can backfire ten times in a row and then the 11th time they will say "see, bunts work!!"

And Tim Corbin may be a good coach, but not because of bunts, it is because he has damn good players. He would win more if he bunted less.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by GamecockInHell View Post
We are better off with a runner at second and one out than hitting into a DP which is often our result.
Or you could get a single or a double or a triple or a home run or a hit or a walk or an error or a passed ball or a HBP. Or make an out and still advance the runner. And the odds are one of those things will happen instead of a double play. A bunt does not avoid a DP as much as it avoids a big inning.

And you can still hit into a DP if you hit the bunt too hard or at a fielder - the runner on first takes a lot longer to get to first when he bunts.

Stupid, stupid, stupid play.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:21 PM   #12
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
Or you could get a single or a double or a triple or a home run or a hit or a walk or an error or a passed ball or a HBP. Or make an out and still advance the runner. And the odds are one of those things will happen instead of a double play. A bunt does not avoid a DP as much as it avoids a big inning.

And you can still hit into a DP if you hit the bunt too hard or at a fielder - the runner on first takes a lot longer to get to first when he bunts.

Stupid, stupid, stupid play.
No what's stupid is arguing statistics for a different level of ball. If someone would do the stats of the college game, and it backed up your points, you make a good argument, if you are just basing it off of what if's because the lower level game has better batting averages, no one knows unless the stats are done. Since you spend a lot of time arguing it should be better to just hit, how about get all the teams in college, and run the stats and send it into the USC baseball team if it reflects what you're saying.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
Might be the weakest argument that I have ever heard. Because you are ignoring the fact that when pros "practice many hours a day" it makes them better at fielding balls that are not bunts. And also better at bunting.

The studies have also shown that you are likelier to score more runs with runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs than runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out.

And here is the rub - it is not a lead pipe cinch that you will advance the runner to 2nd, or the runners to 2nd and 3rd, to get to that less desirable situation. I would put the chance at a "successful" bunt at around 80% - you can also pop out, bunt too hard and get the lead runner, foul off the 3rd strike, get behind in the count and have to swing away when you are in the hole, etc. Because college hitters aren't as good as pros at bunting.

On the other hand - college players hit for higher averages, walk more, get more HBPs, more errors, etc. I much higher on base percentage if you hit away. If bunts don't make sense in the pros, they make a lot less sense in college.

And my pet peeve is when the failed bunt is described as "poor fundamentals". Bunts are not easy. Think about free throws - it is a short shot, no one guarding you, and a good free throw shooter makes 80%. Is the other 20% "poor fundamentals"? If a good hitter bats .300, does he have poor fundamentals the other 70% of the time?

But the thread should not be brought up - the baseball purists will defend the bunt no matter how many times it fails. They totally ignore the facts and probably still think the earth is flat. Bunts can backfire ten times in a row and then the 11th time they will say "see, bunts work!!"

And Tim Corbin may be a good coach, but not because of bunts, it is because he has damn good players. He would win more if he bunted less.
Tim Corbin might be the best small ball coach in the country and my argument is certainly not weak. Those pros can throw and catch it better than anyone. College players simply make more errors.
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:19 AM   #14
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

The bottom line, is the reason why bunting doesn't work so well in pro ball is because not enough people practice it. You don't make big money on bunting so why bother getting good at that when you can work on your swing. And you make the same fatal mistake that just about everyone does in the world these days: taking some statistics a reading too much into them. If you have players that are good at bunting, and you are playing a team that is not very good a defense it is a great strategy. Don't take some statistics to try to make some broad agrument that bunting doesn't work. It's not that simple to explain with numbers and you know it.
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Old 04-12-2017, 07:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

I don't care for the sac bunt except in certain situations. However, bunting (or attempted bunting) is not why we are losing. We have several problems that I don't know if we can fix this year. Just got to let it play out and see where we are in about 6 weeks.
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:00 AM   #16
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by rioninusc View Post
No what's stupid is arguing statistics for a different level of ball. If someone would do the stats of the college game, and it backed up your points, you make a good argument, if you are just basing it off of what if's because the lower level game has better batting averages, no one knows unless the stats are done. Since you spend a lot of time arguing it should be better to just hit, how about get all the teams in college, and run the stats and send it into the USC baseball team if it reflects what you're saying.
What's stupid is not using your head. If the bunt does not make sense in pro ball, it makes less sense in college ball. Are batting averages higher in college? are there more errors, walks, HBPs, wild pitches? Is the OBP much higher? The answer to all of those questions is yes. And the pros bunt a lot better than college players.

Speaking of heads, banging my head against a sheetrock wall is stupid. What you are saying that it might make sense to bang my head against a block wall because because no studies have been done showing that it is a bad idea - when everyone know that a block wall is harder than drywall.

You can spend a few weeks doing the research if you don't want to use common sense to get the answer. I already know the answer. But I'll put up 10K to fund the research - but only if it turns out that you are right. Fair? Start researching!
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:22 AM   #17
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by GamecockUltimate View Post
Tim Corbin might be the best small ball coach in the country and my argument is certainly not weak. Those pros can throw and catch it better than anyone. College players simply make more errors.
No, your argument is not weak, it is non-existent. Fielding percentages in college average around .97, pros around .98. There is a one percent higher chance of making an error in college than the pros - pretty much a non-factor. The success rate for bunting in the pros is .87, and would be lower in college where they do not practice it as much.

Consider that a little. Your chances of scoring runs are diminished if a bunt is "successful", whether you have runners on first or first and second. And there is a 13% chance that the bunt is not "successful". IN THE PROS.

The amount of run differential in the bunting/non-bunting scenarios for college is much higher than the pros because the on-base percentage is so much higher. And "successful" bunts are less likely in college where the batters don't practice bunts - it would be well above 13%.

And your argument is that fielders is college aren't as good? When there is a 1% difference in fielding percentage? And the same difference would apply if you were swinging away? Are you part of some bunt-worshiping cult or something?
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:30 AM   #18
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by EAtMoRTaYtErz View Post
The bottom line, is the reason why bunting doesn't work so well in pro ball is because not enough people practice it. You don't make big money on bunting so why bother getting good at that when you can work on your swing. And you make the same fatal mistake that just about everyone does in the world these days: taking some statistics a reading too much into them. If you have players that are good at bunting, and you are playing a team that is not very good a defense it is a great strategy. Don't take some statistics to try to make some broad agrument that bunting doesn't work. It's not that simple to explain with numbers and you know it.
It really is pretty simple and obvious. Bunting is practiced 10X more in the pros. College kids are big-time hitters in HS and very seldom are asked to bunt, or even practice bunting until college.

In the pros, where it actually makes a little more sense to bunt (lower on-base percentages, pitchers are poor hitters), baseball is a full-time job and there are no limits on practices. It usually takes years to get to the majors, even for players that have already been through college baseball. So they have more years of experience, seasons are longer, etc.

Major leaguers are much better at bunting - although that can change, because they are starting to realize that sac bunting is a waste of an out.
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:51 AM   #19
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

MLB is still not college baseball. Variables variables variables.
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:00 AM   #20
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
Might be the weakest argument that I have ever heard. Because you are ignoring the fact that when pros "practice many hours a day" it makes them better at fielding balls that are not bunts. And also better at bunting.

The studies have also shown that you are likelier to score more runs with runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs than runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out.

And here is the rub - it is not a lead pipe cinch that you will advance the runner to 2nd, or the runners to 2nd and 3rd, to get to that less desirable situation. I would put the chance at a "successful" bunt at around 80% - you can also pop out, bunt too hard and get the lead runner, foul off the 3rd strike, get behind in the count and have to swing away when you are in the hole, etc. Because college hitters aren't as good as pros at bunting.

On the other hand - college players hit for higher averages, walk more, get more HBPs, more errors, etc. I much higher on base percentage if you hit away. If bunts don't make sense in the pros, they make a lot less sense in college.

And my pet peeve is when the failed bunt is described as "poor fundamentals". Bunts are not easy. Think about free throws - it is a short shot, no one guarding you, and a good free throw shooter makes 80%. Is the other 20% "poor fundamentals"? If a good hitter bats .300, does he have poor fundamentals the other 70% of the time?

But the thread should not be brought up - the baseball purists will defend the bunt no matter how many times it fails. They totally ignore the facts and probably still think the earth is flat. Bunts can backfire ten times in a row and then the 11th time they will say "see, bunts work!!"

And Tim Corbin may be a good coach, but not because of bunts, it is because he has damn good players. He would win more if he bunted less.

You can be hit by a page, take a ball, make an error etc. on a bunt attempt. I'm not sure what your point is.
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