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Old 04-12-2017, 10:00 AM   #21
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

Oh goody, the sabermetric guys.

Is it easier to score with a guy on first with no outs or a guy on second with one....the guy on second.

OP is one of those guys who saw moneyball and said, "This changes EVERYTHING!"

You know what wins basesball...pitching, defense and timely hitting...not algorithms.

Yes, there is merit to doing a hit and run over a sac bunt...but it your team struggles at hit-and-run, then you can't really call that. The same goes with sac-bunting...if the team or batter can't do it, you can't call it.
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:03 AM   #22
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by Roosterboy View Post
Oh goody, the sabermetric guys.

Is it easier to score with a guy on first with no outs or a guy on second with one....the guy on second.

OP is one of those guys who saw moneyball and said, "This changes EVERYTHING!"

You know what wins basesball...pitching, defense and timely hitting...not algorithms.

Yes, there is merit to doing a hit and run over a sac bunt...but it your team struggles at hit-and-run, then you can't really call that. The same goes with sac-bunting...if the team or batter can't do it, you can't call it.
And I think that is a bit of a problem. Not that Chad calls bunts. But that he'll call on just about anyone to bunt, regardless of whether they have demonstrated proficiency or not.
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
What's stupid is not using your head. If the bunt does not make sense in pro ball, it makes less sense in college ball. Are batting averages higher in college? are there more errors, walks, HBPs, wild pitches? Is the OBP much higher? The answer to all of those questions is yes. And the pros bunt a lot better than college players.

Speaking of heads, banging my head against a sheetrock wall is stupid. What you are saying that it might make sense to bang my head against a block wall because because no studies have been done showing that it is a bad idea - when everyone know that a block wall is harder than drywall.

You can spend a few weeks doing the research if you don't want to use common sense to get the answer. I already know the answer. But I'll put up 10K to fund the research - but only if it turns out that you are right. Fair? Start researching!
I'm not the one who brings up the debate every time USC bunts. There is no correlation between MLB, and College. As CD posted below my quote, it makes more sense, play to the strength of your players.

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Originally Posted by CockyDevil View Post
And I think that is a bit of a problem. Not that Chad calls bunts. But that he'll call on just about anyone to bunt, regardless of whether they have demonstrated proficiency or not.
Good posts, and makes more sense.
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Old 04-12-2017, 04:49 PM   #24
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Many research reports have shown there is a better chance of scoring a runner from 1b with no outs than scoring a runner from 2b with one out. The latest story I read on this was showing how much sac bunts have decreased in MLB.

In 2016 MLB had the lowest amount of sac bunts in baseball history. The Boston Red Sox had only 8 sac bunts last season and MLB plays 162 games. As I have stated several times the sac bunt is a wasted out and most MLB managers seem to feel the same way.

Not only is the sac bunt a low percentage play, Chad has many players who can't execute the bunt and make outs. Other times Chad takes the bunt off after the player has two strikes. Needless to say this puts the hitter in a deep hole that usually results in an out.

If Chad will start playing the percentages like most MLB teams have done we should win more games. MLB woke up. Hopefully Chad will do the same. LSU won several national titles when they had a coach who hated the sac bunt.
Let me know when Chad becomes a MLB head coach and we can revisit your MLB stats.
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Old 04-12-2017, 05:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by GamecockUltimate View Post
Tim Corbin might be the best small ball coach in the country and my argument is certainly not weak. Those pros can throw and catch it better than anyone. College players simply make more errors.
You keep bringing up Tim Corbin who has won one CWS. Why not also bring up Skip Bertman of LSU who hated the sac bunt and won several CWS titles?
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Old 04-12-2017, 05:41 PM   #26
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by Roosterboy View Post
Oh goody, the sabermetric guys.

Is it easier to score with a guy on first with no outs or a guy on second with one....the guy on second.

OP is one of those guys who saw moneyball and said, "This changes EVERYTHING!"

You know what wins basesball...pitching, defense and timely hitting...not algorithms.

Yes, there is merit to doing a hit and run over a sac bunt...but it your team struggles at hit-and-run, then you can't really call that. The same goes with sac-bunting...if the team or batter can't do it, you can't call it.
Oh goody - one of the traditionalists that says "that is baseball, it is always done that way". Bunting is sacred and no one can ever question it. Never mind that it makes no sense in the pros, and much less in college!

And sabermetrics and Moneyball have changed baseball - for the better.

Hitting wins baseball? I agree - so why aren't we letting them hit??

Last edited by Ace Dilcock; 04-12-2017 at 09:47 PM..
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Old 04-12-2017, 05:45 PM   #27
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

MLB in 2016 averaged .21 sacs per game. This figure would be much lower if the NL had a DH. College or pro the sac bunt is a wasted out. As Ace has stated once a runner is on 1b with no outs, many good things can happen to advance the runner without giving up an out. This outweighs the possibility of hitting into a DP.

College players on D1 teams are the stars of their teams in high school and are rarely called on to bunt, another very solid reason college players should not sac bunt. Just think of the time Chad has been at USC when he called for the sac bunt. Roughly how many times was the bunt successful? It was not successful many more times than it has been and I see almost every USC game either in person or video.

Another very good reason never to bunt at USC is the fact we have very few quality pitchers on our team. We should play for the big inning, not give outs to our opponent.

Are all the numerous studies about the sac bunt being a low percentage play false and the few of you who favor it are right? I don't think so.
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Old 04-12-2017, 05:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rioninusc View Post
I'm not the one who brings up the debate every time USC bunts. There is no correlation between MLB, and College. As CD posted below my quote, it makes more sense, play to the strength of your players.



Good posts, and makes more sense.
Yes, there is a correlation. The games are very similar. The main difference is that bunting makes even less sense in college because the chances of getting on base are much higher, and the players are not as good at bunting. So giving up an out by bunting is even dumber.
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Old 04-12-2017, 06:31 PM   #29
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by Spur20001 View Post
You keep bringing up Tim Corbin who has won one CWS. Why not also bring up Skip Bertman of LSU who hated the sac bunt and won several CWS titles?
because Skip coached in an era when the bats and balls were completely different. Early tanner teams competed off Gorilla ball. The game changed when the bats and balls changed.
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Old 04-12-2017, 06:40 PM   #30
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by GamecockUltimate View Post
because Skip coached in an era when the bats and balls were completely different. Early tanner teams competed off Gorilla ball. The game changed when the bats and balls changed.




You would think that these guys would realize how much the game changed with bat changes, followed by ball changes.
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:02 PM   #31
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by GamecockUltimate View Post
because Skip coached in an era when the bats and balls were completely different. Early tanner teams competed off Gorilla ball. The game changed when the bats and balls changed.
Weak. The composite bats still have more juice than wood bats used in the pros, and bunting does not make sense there either.

College has higher batting averages, more walks, more HBPs, more errors, more passed balls, etc. - with the current bats. You are much likelier to get on base in college. And college players are not as good at bunting, so the "success" rate with bunting is lower than 87% in college.

Someone said that you could still get HBPs or a walk when you bunt. Not true. You don't get HBPs often with bunts because you square up in front of the plate, so no HBP if you are in the strike zone. Walks are less likely because it is hard to pull off on a pitch out of the strike zone. The more common result is getting behind in the count and having to swing away deep in the hole - lowering the batter's chance of getting on. That is not even factored into the stats that have been cited - but failing to get a bunt down and having to swing away lowers the OBP while not being included in the bunt success rate. Yet another negative.

How many negatives do you need to see before you realize that it is bad strategy?
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Old 04-12-2017, 11:28 PM   #32
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

Funny stuff.
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:34 AM   #33
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
It really is pretty simple and obvious. Bunting is practiced 10X more in the pros. College kids are big-time hitters in HS and very seldom are asked to bunt, or even practice bunting until college.

In the pros, where it actually makes a little more sense to bunt (lower on-base percentages, pitchers are poor hitters), baseball is a full-time job and there are no limits on practices. It usually takes years to get to the majors, even for players that have already been through college baseball. So they have more years of experience, seasons are longer, etc.

Major leaguers are much better at bunting - although that can change, because they are starting to realize that sac bunting is a waste of an out.
They aren't practicing any damn bunting in pros and if its not working in college its because they aren't practicing it in college either because scouts don't care about it. They are plenty off good hitters out there for 30 teams MLB teams and their minor league teams. There just aren't plenty of good hitters on THIS team so they need stop daydreaming of being the next A Rod and start freaking working on their bunts.

Just like during our championship runs, we are going to run into pitchers that for whatever reason we can just not freaking hit, but we are going to be in the game because our pitching has kept us in it. In those situations are GOING to move runners into score position late in the game to get the win.
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:01 AM   #34
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

Bunting is the least of our worries...
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Old 04-13-2017, 06:04 PM   #35
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EAtMoRTaYtErz View Post
They aren't practicing any damn bunting in pros and if its not working in college its because they aren't practicing it in college either because scouts don't care about it. They are plenty off good hitters out there for 30 teams MLB teams and their minor league teams. There just aren't plenty of good hitters on THIS team so they need stop daydreaming of being the next A Rod and start freaking working on their bunts.

Just like during our championship runs, we are going to run into pitchers that for whatever reason we can just not freaking hit, but we are going to be in the game because our pitching has kept us in it. In those situations are GOING to move runners into score position late in the game to get the win.
You must not be aware of the NL not having a DH. NL pitchers have plenty of practice on bunting. Many hitters also practice lots of bunting but still MLB sac bunts are at an all time low because study after study shows the sac bunt is a low percentage play. Do you dispute these studies? Is your opinion right and these studies wrong?

How is bunting late in the game going to improve the chance of scoring when this goes against the proven odds?
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Old 04-13-2017, 06:33 PM   #36
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ball/99615340/



For those of you that think bunting in the majors is practiced more, a couple of old school players/coaches would disagree
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:55 PM   #37
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

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Originally Posted by EAtMoRTaYtErz View Post
They aren't practicing any damn bunting in pros and if its not working in college its because they aren't practicing it in college either because scouts don't care about it. They are plenty off good hitters out there for 30 teams MLB teams and their minor league teams. There just aren't plenty of good hitters on THIS team so they need stop daydreaming of being the next A Rod and start freaking working on their bunts.

Just like during our championship runs, we are going to run into pitchers that for whatever reason we can just not freaking hit, but we are going to be in the game because our pitching has kept us in it. In those situations are GOING to move runners into score position late in the game to get the win.
If they are not practicing bunting more in the majors, it is because MLB has figured out that bunting does not make sense. So why does it make sense in college? I can guarantee you that our OBP is well above the major league norm, so the percentages are even worse.

And maybe our team would hit better if they did not waste time with bunting practice. And what does it do the batters' psyche if the coach asks them to bunt - basically saying that "I don't trust you to do anything good hitting, so you need to give up your at-bat by sacrificing yourself".

Holbrook is getting trashed on social media - why not try something new? Use a little sense and trust his hitters? He won't ever do it though - his interview in advance of Mississippi State was "maybe we can get some bunts down and score some runs....". Or, if he bunts, not score runs.

Last edited by Ace Dilcock; 04-14-2017 at 07:28 AM..
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:52 PM   #38
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

I just can't get behind the whole "bunting scores less" runs studies. Here's why...

If you're bunting, you're not looking for a lot of runs. You're probably looking for one, and you either get it or you don't. This naturally keeps the average number of runs scored lower.

If you're looking for as many runs as possible, then you probably aren't bunting.

Either way, this debate is probably more about personal preference than anything. Nobody is ever going to win this argument.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:28 PM   #39
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

I dont think Holbrook bunts enough, and sometimes bunts in dumb situations. Id do my best to ensure that each inning i got a runner on second and 1 out, over 9 innings i am going to score alot with that. I think Small ball can win games, but you cant expect big innings as fans, but you can expect consistent innings. There is a reason that if you need one run in the 9th and have a runner on first and no outs that 90% of the time coaches bunt.

we can agree to disagree but bunting and hit and runs are fundamental in small ball, and the college game has trended towards small ball.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:59 AM   #40
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Default Re: If Chad Has Not Read The Sac Bunt Studies:

we are bad at a lot of things
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