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Old 02-11-2018, 12:46 PM   #101
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

I'm going to give it a solid B because like many times in the past we addressed our needs rather than pursue and waste time on 5 star guys we weren't going to get just because of the number of stars by their name. But I was disappointed by the ones we missed on that we thought were locks. And I was looking forward to a big name flip or two.
In order for us to recruit better without cheating our coaches are going to have to continue to evaluate and work hard to recruit elite players, but we are also going to have to continue to win on the field. And we need to not only stop losing to Kentucky, but we also need a big upset (uga or the taters) to swing momentum away from them. A tall task but not impossible.
And at least we did out recruit everyone in our division except uga.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:36 PM   #102
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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Originally Posted by GamecockInHell View Post
I'm going to give it a solid B because like many times in the past we addressed our needs rather than pursue and waste time on 5 star guys we weren't going to get just because of the number of stars by their name. But I was disappointed by the ones we missed on that we thought were locks. And I was looking forward to a big name flip or two.
In order for us to recruit better without cheating our coaches are going to have to continue to evaluate and work hard to recruit elite players, but we are also going to have to continue to win on the field. And we need to not only stop losing to Kentucky, but we also need a big upset (uga or the taters) to swing momentum away from them. A tall task but not impossible.
And at least we did out recruit everyone in our division except uga.
Not losing to Kentucky is a must, period. In order to get the big pendulum to swing, we are gonna have to start knocking off Clem$ux and UGAY again. 2 tall orders, particularly when others are cheating, but its gonna have to happen.
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Old 02-11-2018, 07:26 PM   #103
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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Originally Posted by Aekkaa View Post
"If someone disagrees with me, they must be a Clemson fan"
Seems to be the prevalent attitude on here
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Old 02-11-2018, 07:49 PM   #104
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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"If someone disagrees with me, they must be a Clemson fan"
So you are saying that it makes sense for Clemson to offer Joyner as a Safety and a Safety only? Never to be tried at QB for a single snap? And that Dabo wanted Joyner on that basis? Okay, I can accept your opinion.

I did not accuse you of being a Clemson fan. In fact, you seem like a nice guy, and I was going to hook you up with some great oceanfront property in Pickens County. If you do not want property there, its fine with me. Maybe you could buy it and sell it to a Clemson fan for a profit?
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Old 02-12-2018, 10:52 AM   #105
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

On a relative scale I would give us a high "B" but not quite a B+. 7th in the SEC is equivalent to top 25 nationally. However, in a few years we may look back and say this was a solid "A" class. Especially if Bryce Thompson is able to get into school
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:03 PM   #106
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

I don't look at how we did in conference or how we did in the nation. I look at the caliber of athletes we brought in versus what our needs were and did we fill those gaps?

At this point you can only go eye test and what you think it will translate into at the SEC level.

QB - Joyner is a guy you have to take a chance on. Athletic ability is through the roof. He's not the most polished passer to ever step foot on Willy B, but neither was Garcia or Shaw. I think he has the opportunity to be a Michael Vick type player (that level? not calling that) in the right system and situation. Will he step out there like a deer in headlights like we've seen some of our recent guys, or will he step out there and show out? We'll see ... A-

RB - I absolutely love both of this pick ups. Fenwick looks like Big George out there steam rolling people, and when Valentine breaks the seem ... he gone! They don't have a flashy ranking, but this as a duo could be deadly for us ... A

WR - Vann, Rush, and Johnson were great pick ups for this class. Rush is the guy that Muschamp loves to go pick up. Under the radar with talent to play with a chip on his shoulder and stun everyone else ... B

OLine - The one thing I loved reading about for a number of our Oline guys were that they "played mean". I can't name the last time we had an Oline that just worked our opponents and moved them at will. I think Manos, Gwyn, Iyama, and of course Wonnum will be anchors to this line that we look back and say, "those guys took the Offense to another level." ... A

DLine - Thin on the numbers, but not the talent. Sandidge is going to be a game changer for our D. I know it's not the same position, but he really reminds me of Melvin Ingram. Enagbare is going to be fun to see how he grows. Looks like a Darius English type player, but what year of production will we get? ... B

LBs - Of course Louis was the big flip here. I'm interested to see how Ernest Jones grows into the position. He is sneaky strong and comes off blocks extremely well. You'll never replace Skai Moore, but we brought in some guys that I think will give us great production ... B

DBs - The goal here was to get more athletic and longer guys ... we did exactly that. Horn is the shortest at 6' along with Thompson (if he makes it on in) and Roderick, and then you add in Gipson at 6'2 and Mukuamu at 6'5. That is far different than the 5'10 average our DBs were this past season. The best part is, every single one of them are top notch Defenders/Athletes ... A

I don't care what other teams did, as Muschamp likes to say, "We got better." We improved everywhere we needed to, and added QUALITY depth to areas we could. Overall, I would give the class a B+ until they get on the field and see how it shapes out.
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I agree with Cack.
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:06 PM   #107
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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What do you mean by this? Who are the "big boys"? What does it take, in your mind, to be the best team during those years?

Since 2010, South Carolina is:
5-3 against Florida;
5-3 against Tennessee; and
4-4 against Georgia.

All 4 teams have gone through a coaching change during that time, and all 4 teams have had their relative ups and downs.

I feel like you have some sort of inferiority complex or something going on here. When we beat out one of these schools for a recruit, you chalk it up to the other school losing rather than us winning. Despite the fact that our squad was incredibly talented during the three 11-win seasons, you talk about the other schools like they had more talent.

Fact is, if Florida, Georgia, and Tennessee are "big-boys", then South Carolina is a "big-boy" too.
And yet we have never won an SEC championship, not to mention a National championship. We are not in UGA, Florida, or UT's league until we do.
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:28 PM   #108
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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And yet we have never won an SEC championship, not to mention a National championship. We are not in UGA, Florida, or UT's league until we do.
UGA's NC was before the current SEC.

Florida's were with great coaches, outside of Meyer or Spurrier, Florida is just an above average program. Florida NEVER won a conference title till 1991.

Tennessee won their in 1998, which happens to be the last time they won the SEC.

So they may have been a step a head of us in the past, but as pointed out we are catching up to them, you just wont admit it since it doesn't fit your narrative.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:51 PM   #109
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

Good analysis, Cack ("I agree with Cack"). I am not a "stars are infallible" guy, but I would drop the RBs down a grade because they are not highly rated. But you are right, they appear to be under-rated and have lots of potential. Just not an A.

One thing that I have seen is that strong programs get the "Alabama bump" in recruiting and non-traditional powers tend to go in the other direction. What I mean by that is that commits to the power programs get added stars, while commits to non-powers either don't get a bump or go down.

That partially explains how South Carolina brought in the #34 rated class in 2010 and used that class to have their best success ever, while subsequent higher rated classes us back down. Once you are successful for a few years, you get that bump - we were getting in during the 11 im season, and then stopped getting it when we sent to 6 wins and then 3.

All that to say that our class is under-rated and is the type of class that we can build future success around.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:59 PM   #110
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
Gregory, I see the gap narrowing with schools like Clemson and UGA. You can only put 11 players on the field at a time - and our 11 are getting better every year.

Clemson is loaded up with talent at DE - 10 deep - but can only play two, meaning that their two 5*/three Top 100 Freshmen will be on the bench for a while. They will have a 4* and two 5* QBs sitting on the bench behind a 3* (and they have already lost a 3* and a 4* to transfer). Yeah, they got a 5* WR yesterday, and he will be good, but they just lost two 5* to the draft and they only can put three on the field at a time - and one of their starters in 2018 will be a former walk-on. And they already had a 5* and a bunch of 4* WRs - none of whom are as good as Deebo, IMO.

Same with UGA. They got the #1 QB per ESPN? Okay, but Fromm looks to be the starter for the next two-three years. And Fromm's success means that former #5 prospect/5* Jacob Eason is gone - with UGA only getting the benefit of a spotty true Freshman season.

Players with high star ratings do not help your team unless they play. Stacking up at a couple of positions lessens the value of high recruiting classes - it means that you will be good at those positions but not across the board, and players will transfer without ever providing much benefit.
I love ya Ace, but I think you are being a huge homer to say that Deebo is better than every WR Clemson has. He was not better than R. Mcloud, and he is not better than Tee Higgins. He is definitely better than Hunter Renfrow, but I don't think the gap is as big as you think it is.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:23 PM   #111
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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UGA's NC was before the current SEC.

Florida's were with great coaches, outside of Meyer or Spurrier, Florida is just an above average program. Florida NEVER won a conference title till 1991.

Tennessee won their in 1998, which happens to be the last time they won the SEC.

So they may have been a step a head of us in the past, but as pointed out we are catching up to them, you just wont admit it since it doesn't fit your narrative.
Of course this has yet to be determined. Hopeful I am, but still your argument is unproven. Defensively we will be on point I have no doubts as re have seen the last 2-3 years. Offensively is where I am skeptical. I did really enjoy the 2nd half of the Outback bowl though.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:41 PM   #112
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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Of course this has yet to be determined. Hopeful I am, but still your argument is unproven. Defensively we will be on point I have no doubts as re have seen the last 2-3 years. Offensively is where I am skeptical. I did really enjoy the 2nd half of the Outback bowl though.


Your argument is dated. People showed you our record vs those three. We are at the level at this point in time. And honestly a step above Tennessee at this point.


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Old 02-12-2018, 09:05 PM   #113
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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I love ya Ace, but I think you are being a huge homer to say that Deebo is better than every WR Clemson has. He was not better than R. Mcloud, and he is not better than Tee Higgins. He is definitely better than Hunter Renfrow, but I don't think the gap is as big as you think it is.
RayRay - 39 games, 127 receptions for 1226 yards, 18 carries for 106 yards, 51 kick returns for 493 yards, 5 TDs.

Deebo -18 games (less than half!), 86 catches for 1194 yards, 17 carries for 128 yards, 21 kick returns for 657 yards, 16 TDs.

Deebo actually has more yards from scrimmage in 21 fewer games (and 41 fewer touches). And everything is in Deebo's favor - Yards per Catch, Yards per Carry, Yards per Return, TDs.

You can't even use the injury argument - Deebo has better stats even playing less than half as many games. And those are not full games - he came out early in three of those games.

Feel free to explain your thought process.

Last edited by Ace Dilcock; 02-12-2018 at 09:26 PM..
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Old 02-12-2018, 09:51 PM   #114
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
RayRay - 39 games, 127 receptions for 1226 yards, 18 carries for 106 yards, 51 kick returns for 493 yards, 5 TDs.

Deebo -18 games (less than half!), 86 catches for 1194 yards, 17 carries for 128 yards, 21 kick returns for 657 yards, 16 TDs.

Deebo actually has more yards from scrimmage in 21 fewer games (and 41 fewer touches). And everything is in Deebo's favor - Yards per Catch, Yards per Carry, Yards per Return, TDs.

You can't even use the injury argument - Deebo has better stats even playing less than half as many games. And those are not full games - he came out early in three of those games.

Feel free to explain your thought process.
To use career stats is misleading at best. R. Mcloud was at best the 4th option his Soph and Jr year. Deebo is an amazing player, But to use a starting receivers stats vs. a backup receiver doesn't paint an accurate picture. Clemson's high school offense also relies on the QB running and scoring a lot of touchdowns whereas Deebo has benefitted from a more pro-style offense.

Deebo may prove, I hope he proves, he is the better player going forward, but I don't think he has been to this point. And yes, injury does matter. If you can't stay on the field, you are just another guy. Another "what if" story. I can agree that Deebo is as good, if not slightly better athlete. But better player? I don't think so at this point.
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Old 02-12-2018, 09:57 PM   #115
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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To use career stats is misleading at best. R. Mcloud was at best the 4th option his Soph and Jr year. Deebo is an amazing player, But to use a starting receivers stats vs. a backup receiver doesn't paint an accurate picture. Clemson's high school offense also relies on the QB running and scoring a lot of touchdowns whereas Deebo has benefitted from a more pro-style offense.

Deebo may prove, I hope he proves, he is the better player going forward, but I don't think he has been to this point. And yes, injury does matter. If you can't stay on the field, you are just another guy. Another "what if" story. I can agree that Deebo is as good, if not slightly better athlete. But better player? I don't think so at this point.
Im as big a fan as anyone of Deebo, he is good, but I hope he stays healthy for all of 2018 and see what his total stats look like.
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Old 02-12-2018, 10:37 PM   #116
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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Im as big a fan as anyone of Deebo, he is good, but I hope he stays healthy for all of 2018 and see what his total stats look like.
I hope so too. This may be the year he becomes a household name. Of course to that point, I would concede he is better than McCloud. He isn't yet though.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:50 AM   #117
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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To use career stats is misleading at best. R. Mcloud was at best the 4th option his Soph and Jr year. Deebo is an amazing player, But to use a starting receivers stats vs. a backup receiver doesn't paint an accurate picture. Clemson's high school offense also relies on the QB running and scoring a lot of touchdowns whereas Deebo has benefitted from a more pro-style offense.

Deebo may prove, I hope he proves, he is the better player going forward, but I don't think he has been to this point. And yes, injury does matter. If you can't stay on the field, you are just another guy. Another "what if" story. I can agree that Deebo is as good, if not slightly better athlete. But better player? I don't think so at this point.
When professional players of any sport get inducted into their respective HOF's, do they not use stats to justify their inclusion? If Deebo statically out produces Ray, how can he not be the better player? Sounds very similar to the UCF National Champions theory...
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:01 AM   #118
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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When professional players of any sport get inducted into their respective HOF's, do they not use stats to justify their inclusion? If Deebo statically out produces Ray, how can he not be the better player? Sounds very similar to the UCF National Champions theory...
Once again Deebo numbers are as a starter. McCloud numbers are as a backup. He had elite NFL receivers ahead of him. As soon as Deebo stepped on campus he was the best receiver.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:21 AM   #119
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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Originally Posted by dogunwo View Post
Once again Deebo numbers are as a starter. McCloud numbers are as a backup. He had elite NFL receivers ahead of him. As soon as Deebo stepped on campus he was the best receiver.
The only thing I gather from your post is that Ray is the better player because he played behind better receivers at CU. That sounds like its your opinion that Ray was/is better than Deebo. You are entitled to that opinion, but without any measurable data, it's just an opinion and not fact. I think Deebo has proven himself to be the better WR aside from the injury issues and maybe this year he will prove it to all of college football.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:44 AM   #120
Ace Dilcock
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Default Re: Give our 2018 class a letter grade

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Originally Posted by dogunwo View Post
To use career stats is misleading at best. R. Mcloud was at best the 4th option his Soph and Jr year. Deebo is an amazing player, But to use a starting receivers stats vs. a backup receiver doesn't paint an accurate picture. Clemson's high school offense also relies on the QB running and scoring a lot of touchdowns whereas Deebo has benefitted from a more pro-style offense.

Deebo may prove, I hope he proves, he is the better player going forward, but I don't think he has been to this point. And yes, injury does matter. If you can't stay on the field, you are just another guy. Another "what if" story. I can agree that Deebo is as good, if not slightly better athlete. But better player? I don't think so at this point.
OK, lets do their Junior years when both were full-time starters.
RayRay - 49 catches for 503 yards, 10.3 average, 1 TD, 6 carries for 30 yards, 5 yard average, 0 TD, 26 kicks returns for 315 yards, 12 yard average, 1 TD.

Deebo - 15 catches for 250 yards, 16.7 average, 3 TDs, 2 carries for 30 yards, 15 yard average, 1 TD, 2 kick returns for 194 yards, 97 yard average, 2 TDs.

One is a dynamic playmaker, the other is a solid but unspectacular WR and return guy.

And now for the punch line - Deebo played 3 games, RayRay played 14.

Yes, Deebo had a freak injury. It happens in tackle football. The difference is that they could have put me in at Deebo's spots for the rest of the year and the total numbers would be better than RayRay. I mean, 6 TDs in 3 games versus 2 in 14??

C'mon, I know that you are a Dawg and don't care about your credibility, but still. Notice how the Clemson trolls stay away from the discussion? They have already lost the same argument 3,847 times, and even they know better!
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