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Old 05-17-2017, 10:54 PM   #81
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

If you are referring to Clemson's 2017 class, they only had 14 spots. Their 2018 class will be about the same. The 2017 class had a 3.86 average, only 3 teams had a better average.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:32 AM   #82
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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Originally Posted by TAFC 5 1981 View Post
If you are referring to Clemson's 2017 class, they only had 14 spots. Their 2018 class will be about the same. The 2017 class had a 3.86 average, only 3 teams had a better average.
It is true that quantity had more to do with the lower ranking than quality, at least with the 2017 class and potentially with the 2018 group (they are not signed yet, so "potentially" - you don't know that "they will be about the same").

So if you are saying that your talent is actually "elite" because of higher star average, that overlooks a few things. First, that is not as true with earlier classes, which you will be relying on more heavily to contribute than true Freshmen. Two, the Freshmen will also be the group most lacking in experience, which has a direct bearing on their 2017 performance if they do play. Three, the higher average means that your high team ranking is largely based on bonus points, which is essentially counting the same player twice. Unfortunately, you only get one player. Fourth, there is something to be said for signing larger numbers - the odds of finding a hidden gem or two go up. Conversely, if you sign small classes and some of them turn out to be duds (there is a significant miss rate even on 5* players), you have a lot of holes.

Just as an example, Hunter Johnson is a 5* Freshman QB. But the experts don't think he will be ready to go his first year, which is bad for him. If Kelly Bryant or Zerrick Cooper becomes the guy in 2017 (which even most Clemson fans seem to think), with 5* Trevor Lawrence coming in next year, you got a huge class ranking boost from a guy that might not ever see the field. FYI, you also got a nice bump from incoming 4* Freshman QB Chase Brice, who is even less likely to see the field. And, just for grins and giggles, the most impressive QB in your Spring game was none of the above - it was 3* Tucker Israel. So much star power, so little results - at least at this point.

But to get back to the point of the thread - I would not trade our QB for any of Clemson's, including Lawrence and Johnson. And that is based on his talent - he will also have an experience edge over everyone except Bryant, and he has more game experience than all of them.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:48 AM   #83
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

There is no escaping Clemson. When we win, we check to see if they lose. When we lose, we hope they do too.... They do the same.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:01 AM   #84
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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But to get back to the point of the thread - I would not trade our QB for any of Clemson's, including Lawrence and Johnson. And that is based on his talent - he will also have an experience edge over everyone except Bryant, and he has more game experience than all of them.
Bentley has the "it" factor. He's the guy you want in the huddle. Coach's son and coach on the field. I hope he's hungry and is working his tail off this summer because he is the one our guys will follow into battle.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:02 AM   #85
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

I guess since I'm not from S.Car and have never even been there, Clemson is kinda irrelevant to me. I wouldn't even care if we didn't play them every year. I care much more about information regarding other SEC teams than Clemson.
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:51 PM   #86
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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But to get back to the point of the thread - I would not trade our QB for any of Clemson's, including Lawrence and Johnson. And that is based on his talent - he will also have an experience edge over everyone except Bryant, and he has more game experience than all of them.
I think Clemson will be fine at QB in the future; Florida I am not sure about yet.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:35 PM   #87
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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That is why I shake my head when I hear people say we can have a better team and still only win 6.

The O has been the problem for the last three years. I know, we set a single season passing record with Dylan Thompson in 2014. But we also had issues running the ball and sustaining drives. And we lost three games when all we had to do in the Fourth Quarter was get a single First Down - in either of two possessions. And 2015 and 2016 - in particular, the first half of 2016 - was brutal.

This year we have quality at QB (who will only get better), WRs (with depth), TE (with depth), and RBs (with depth). And a solid O Line.

I think the D will be better - If I had to bet, I would say D Line about the same, but improvement at LB and DB. But even if it is the same, the D should put up much better numbers simply because the O can move the ball effectively and keep the D off the field.
You're going to have to put me in that "believe it when I see it" category on this O line. Doesn't mean I am down on this group but still... need to see it. We have had many lines look good on paper and look like crap on the field. Maybe it's years of underachieving with Elliott that have me in that mindset.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:15 PM   #88
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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"Great" point about the "great" teams winning at crunch time. Clemson's greatness forced a chip shot/NFL extra point field goal to miss versus NC State. Their greatness also made the Louisville receiver run out of bounds one yard short of a First Down that would have given them the game.

Puhleeze - they were good but they also caught a bushel basket of breaks over the last two years.

But it is our time now - we are the ones with the hot young QB and the talent at the skill positions. If Roper is the real deal and page Two of the playbook has some Spurrier-ish ball plays, watch out.
Every championship team has those games. Luck is a huge part of every championship teams success.. Auburn 2010 might of had the most. You can deny it all you want but it's the truth. You bring up a missed chip shot fg but fail to mention that they held the team to a FG. They didn't let up a TD. So it didn't cost them the game. Louisville didn't score enough points, so you give credit to Louisville? And not clemson for out scoring them? I don't get it. Sure those teams got close but a wins a win and a loss is a loss no matter how you slice it. alabama could've ran those pick pass plays, they could've done something so their defense wasn't in the field 90 plays. They ended the year #1 and it's a credit to them be it luck or not. You could say we got lucky during our successful years too. What if Clowney didn't get the strip sack fumble against Tennessee, etc. to discredit a team because they had a few close games doesn't take away the fact that they're chamoions as bad as I wish they weren't.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:24 PM   #89
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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Every championship team has those games.
Careful...treading smack talk turf.
Everyone knows because it was our upstate rival, they didn't win anything since they were "lucky" and there's dozens of reasons why they don't deserve to be NCs.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:25 PM   #90
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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You're saying teams like Alabama, Pitt, and Louisville all put up 31+ on clemsons defense as if those offenses were trash. Pitt had one of the great offensive minds in all of cfb calling plays behind peterman who is the biggest sleeper at QB in the draft, the heisman trophy winner at Louisville in Jackson, and Alabama obviously had talent across the board. Clemson was on the field over 90 plays against Pitt and louisvillle and practically still won both of those games. I'm not sure the point you were making. The great teams always win in close games. If Clemson just runs the ball 10 more times against Pitt instead of going crazy passing the ball they win that one too. Look back at every national champion. They all had close run ins and won games, that's part of what makes them championship teams.
50% luck. NCState missed an easy short FG, they ran a pick play that wasn't called against Alabama.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:42 PM   #91
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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50% luck. NCState missed an easy short FG, they ran a pick play that wasn't called against Alabama.
The pick play probably shouldn't have been called. It's really difficult to make the pick call when the defense is running press man and attempting to jam the WR off the line because letter of the law is the offensive player has to initiate the contact which doesn't happen against press man because the defensive player is coming up to jam at the snap. That's just a great play call with the game on the line against a team that is known for running press man coverage constantly. Definitely pushes into the grey area in a big way but it's basically impossible to call against press man. The NCST missed FG was pure luck but there isn't ever a team that wins it all without a few lucky breaks, so how does that make Clemson different from any other national championship team?
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:13 AM   #92
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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The pick play probably shouldn't have been called. It's really difficult to make the pick call when the defense is running press man and attempting to jam the WR off the line because letter of the law is the offensive player has to initiate the contact which doesn't happen against press man because the defensive player is coming up to jam at the snap. That's just a great play call with the game on the line against a team that is known for running press man coverage constantly. Definitely pushes into the grey area in a big way but it's basically impossible to call against press man. The NCST missed FG was pure luck but there isn't ever a team that wins it all without a few lucky breaks, so how does that make Clemson different from any other national championship team?
Bullshit, it was an easy call, the other WR was blocking on the play. The refs didn't want to make the call because of the situation and the last play of the game. If the penalty is never called why doesn't every team run it from inside the 5.....because it is called.

Did you read my post, it said 50% luck. I didn't even mention the moronic play by the Louisville WR at the 1 yard line.
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:23 AM   #93
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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Bullshit, it was an easy call, the other WR was blocking on the play. The refs didn't want to make the call because of the situation and the last play of the game. If the penalty is never called why doesn't every team run it from inside the 5.....because it is called.

Did you read my post, it said 50% luck. I didn't even mention the moronic play by the Louisville WR at the 1 yard line.
If he had come down and interfered with the guy covering the slot via contact it would have been offensive interference. The Bama corner was in press coverage and he didn't avoid contact with him and didn't mind being jammed just a yard or two beyond the line because of the play call, that is legal. The end result was the guy covering the slot had to go around but because there was a jam involved it changed the complexion of the play. Because it wasn't a clear situation of the offensive player initiating initial contact they couldn't call it. You can't make that call as a ref, I thought it was a BS no call too until I read the rule. And 50% luck would insinuate they won 7 games by pure BS luck. Just give them the credit they're due. Whenever we finally break through and win one there are going to be plenty of games that we got lucky as well, it's part of how college football works and why we love the game

As for why the rub play isn't called all the time inside the 5, it's because you better be damn sure you're going up against press man coverage. Off man coverage and the pick play doesn't work because the contact would be offensive pass interference. Against zone you stand a better chance of throwing an INT than it being caught because that route will be handed off to the DB with outside responsibility, therefore a pick play designed to throw off the inside DB is totally ineffective because that isn't going to be the player in coverage and the outside DB is in perfect position to make the play. It's a play run to beat a very specific type of coverage, a coverage that Bama had been running all game long. Great play to dial up.

Last edited by gotrice?; 05-19-2017 at 12:33 AM.. Reason: Forgot to put why it isn't called all the time inside the 5
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:26 AM   #94
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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Every championship team has those games. Luck is a huge part of every championship teams success.. Auburn 2010 might of had the most. You can deny it all you want but it's the truth. You bring up a missed chip shot fg but fail to mention that they held the team to a FG. They didn't let up a TD. So it didn't cost them the game. Louisville didn't score enough points, so you give credit to Louisville? And not clemson for out scoring them? I don't get it. Sure those teams got close but a wins a win and a loss is a loss no matter how you slice it. alabama could've ran those pick pass plays, they could've done something so their defense wasn't in the field 90 plays. They ended the year #1 and it's a credit to them be it luck or not. You could say we got lucky during our successful years too. What if Clowney didn't get the strip sack fumble against Tennessee, etc. to discredit a team because they had a few close games doesn't take away the fact that they're chamoions as bad as I wish they weren't.
You are making it sound like a great team makes the breaks happen in their favor, which ignores reality. NC State was not trying to get a TD, all they wanted to do was get in position for an easy winning FG, which they did - they did what they had to do to win by driving the ball deep in Clemson territory. And Clemson did not block or pressure the kicker, he just had the yips.

And the Louisville player had a brain fart - he could have stayed in bounds and gotten a couple of more yards, and Louisville wold be in position for an easy winner, because Clemson's vaunted D was getting shredded in the Second Half. But he thought he had the first down already and was thinking about stopping the clock - which did not matter because the clock stops on a first down anyway. And that is before looking at the penalty situation in the First Half - some of the most one-sided officiating that I have ever seen. Louisville should have been far enough ahead that they did not need the late score.

And I guess that Clemson, being a champion and all, obscured the ref's view so that missed the fumble six against Troy? And Dabo used the sheer power of his mind to make Malzahn rotate three QBs on every play?

And Alabama, to their credit, does not run pick plays because it can, and often does, get called as offensive pass interference. Clemson was fortunate that it was not called, and so they kept doing it. Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but Alabama was clearly the more talented team.

Yes, most champions need some breaks. And you can even say that had some bad breaks against Pitt. But Clemson was also one of the luckier champions, and those breaks/close wins tend to average out. We won a lot of close games in the 11 win seasons, and those have gone the other way the last three years (2014 in particular).

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Old 05-19-2017, 08:35 AM   #95
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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You are making it sound like a great team makes the breaks happen in their favor, which ignores reality. NC State was not trying to get a TD, all they wanted to do was get in position for an easy winning FG, which they did - they did what they had to do to win by driving the ball deep in Clemson territory. And Clemson did not block or pressure the kicker, he just had the yips.

And the Louisville player had a brain fart - he could have stayed in bounds and gotten a couple of more yards, and Louisville wold be in position for an easy winner, because Clemson's vaunted D was getting shredded in the Second Half. But he thought he had the first down already and was thinking about stopping the clock - which did not matter because the clock stops on a first down anyway. And that is before looking at the penalty situation in the First Half - some of the most one-sided officiating that I have ever seen. Louisville should have been far enough ahead that they did not need the late score.

And I guess that Clemson, being a champion and all, obscured the ref's view so that missed the fumble sex against Troy? And Dabo used the sheer power of his mind to make Malzahn rotate three QBs on every play?

And Alabama, to their credit, does not run pick plays because it can, and often does, get called as offensive pass interference. Clemson was fortunate that it was not called, and so they kept doing it. Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but Alabama was clearly the more talented team

Yes, most champions need some breaks. And you can even say that had some bad breaks against Pitt. But Clemson was also one of the luckier champions, and those breaks/close wins tend to average out. We won a lot of close games in the 11 win seasons, and those have gone the other way the last three years (2014 in particular).
You confuse me. It sounds like you don't want to agree with me and gotrice for the sheer reason of just disagreeing, then contradict yourself in your final paragraph by stating what we've been saying all along. So which is it? You don't have to answer that actually. I'm over the topic. Point made.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:58 AM   #96
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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The pick play probably shouldn't have been called. It's really difficult to make the pick call when the defense is running press man and attempting to jam the WR off the line because letter of the law is the offensive player has to initiate the contact which doesn't happen against press man because the defensive player is coming up to jam at the snap. That's just a great play call with the game on the line against a team that is known for running press man coverage constantly. Definitely pushes into the grey area in a big way but it's basically impossible to call against press man. The NCST missed FG was pure luck but there isn't ever a team that wins it all without a few lucky breaks, so how does that make Clemson different from any other national championship team?
There were actually at least three pick plays run during the game. One was a key First Down pass to Leggett that put Clemson inside the 20, another was on a TD pass to Mike Williams. So it was not like it was a single play - they kept on running it because the refs were not calling it.

The last one was a smart call - if it was not called, it was an easy completion for a win., If it was called, it is still chip shot FG range (although about the same range as the missed kick by NC State) and the game would go to OT.

And yes, it was, by rule, offensive pass interference. The Clemson WR was blocking his defender, and pushed him back into the defender covering Renfrow, forcing him to go around his own player and leaving Renfrow wide open. Illegal and clearly an unfair advantage.. And they got three TDs out of it.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:07 AM   #97
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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Just curious on the Baghdad Bob comparison - did he have facts to back up what he was saying? Or do recruiting rankings suddenly not matter?

I'll make a deal with you. I'll shut up about how Clemson would be tied for 7th in the SEC for recruiting and talent, if you guys shut up about how good Clemson will be in 2017 - because of "elite talent".

The truth is that you don't know how good Clemson's talent is in 2017, just that the guys that made them great on offense in 2016 are long gone. When Spurrier fell off in recruiting, the class ranking remained about the same. So we don't know if the new guys are as good as the old guys or just Paper Tigers. But we do know that the QB position will not be nearly as good, whoever starts, and the experience will be very lacking.

Which translates to at least 3 losses, not winning their division, and not being in the Top Ten. And we play 4 teams with as much or more talent in our SEC schedule. Per 247 Sports Composite, not Baghdad Bob.
Like I've said before, the way I judge a team's talent against ours is by comparing guys position by position, whether our guys are talented enough to play on the other team, and vice versa.

There's absolutely no doubt that Clemson over the last three years has had better talent that has also been stronger and better conditioned.

You're right, there's no way to look in a crystal ball and determine how each team's season will pan out. I think it's s mistake to already be alotting them 3 losses solely off of talent they lost....yes, the newer guys they have that were highly rated are a wildcard, but it's no secret they've done a far better job evaluating and developing players than us at pretty much every position for several years. Particularly on defense, the last real NFL impact guy we had was Clowney in 2013....that points to increasingly poor recruiting starting in 2009-2010.

I'm hoping several of their highly rated guys flop. Let's face facts, we've signed a LOT of highly rated guys at a lot of positions that simply didn't, or haven't panned out. On the other hand, they've had an extraordinarily high hit rate on recruits. Someone posted a stat a while back about how many underachieving guys we've had leave the program in the last 2 or 3 years, seems like it was over 30. Tough to sustain a program like that.

I would wager every fan was thrilled when we signed guys like Wideman, Sawyer, both Dixons, Dukes, Mitch, McElwain, D Williams, Blackshear, BAW, 3/4 of our OL, etc. The results have been mixed, those guys ranged from being steady players to being virtually nonexistent, they just never turned into the stars we hoped for.

There's a certain amount of luck involved in recruits paying off, they not only have to dodge injury, they need to have the inner drive to push to be better. Hopefully Clemson starts showing some misses at several positions, but until proven wrong their overall talent is still higher than ours.
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:45 AM   #98
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
There were actually at least three pick plays run during the game. One was a key First Down pass to Leggett that put Clemson inside the 20, another was on a TD pass to Mike Williams. So it was not like it was a single play - they kept on running it because the refs were not calling it.

The last one was a smart call - if it was not called, it was an easy completion for a win., If it was called, it is still chip shot FG range (although about the same range as the missed kick by NC State) and the game would go to OT.

And yes, it was, by rule, offensive pass interference. The Clemson WR was blocking his defender, and pushed him back into the defender covering Renfrow, forcing him to go around his own player and leaving Renfrow wide open. Illegal and clearly an unfair advantage.. And they got three TDs out of it.
You need to let that go; Clemson won. Bama was holding, blocking in the back, targeting, etc.
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:16 PM   #99
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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Originally Posted by Ace Dilcock View Post
There were actually at least three pick plays run during the game. One was a key First Down pass to Leggett that put Clemson inside the 20, another was on a TD pass to Mike Williams. So it was not like it was a single play - they kept on running it because the refs were not calling it.

The last one was a smart call - if it was not called, it was an easy completion for a win., If it was called, it is still chip shot FG range (although about the same range as the missed kick by NC State) and the game would go to OT.

And yes, it was, by rule, offensive pass interference. The Clemson WR was blocking his defender, and pushed him back into the defender covering Renfrow, forcing him to go around his own player and leaving Renfrow wide open. Illegal and clearly an unfair advantage.. And they got three TDs out of it.
Get a grip, man. Clemson won fair and square. More relevant as it pertains to us, they kicked our a*ses up and down the field. If Dabo wasn't a nice guy, he would have let them score 100+ on us.

This kind of reminds of southerners who are hung up on the Civil War.
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:47 PM   #100
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Default Re: 247 thinks highly of our offense this season

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Originally Posted by CoastCocky View Post
Get a grip, man. Clemson won fair and square. More relevant as it pertains to us, they kicked our a*ses up and down the field. If Dabo wasn't a nice guy, he would have let them score 100+ on us.

This kind of reminds of southerners who are hung up on the Civil War.
Hahahahaahhahaha it's hilarious because it's true
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